JBradley

Салам, Джереми! Пагален ӱжына тыйым Марий Википедийыште! --ПешСай 12:57, 6 Идым 2009 (UTC)

About ПешСай

Your example with "buk" is not correct since English has specific rules of reading. A lot of turkic languages use word тӱрк/türk and it corresponds to Mari language. Existing variant ТЮРК is replaced from Russian to Mari and is just a Russian word in Mari language. The reason of such situation was adaptation of Mari language to the Russian during Soviet time. It concerns vocabulary, orthography, syntax. That's why the existing standards for the actual Mari language are like rules of conduct in prison house. Russian does not have letter "ü" but Mari has. PeshSay didn't decide this matter "single-handedly". The decision was adopted by the majority during discussion. That is why there is no reason to deprive PeshSay of the status of administrator. Azimbaj 22:55, 4 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the logic remains flawed. English orthography (never mind other asects of the language) today is what it is due to centuries of foreign influence - French, namely - that has pushed the language quite far away from its Germanic origins. Estonian orthography is what it is today due to centuries of German influence. Welsh orthography is what it is today due to centuries of English influence. It's a falsity to assume that Mari is in any way different from "bigger" languages in this respect.

If it is /turk/ or /türk/ in Turkic languages is not relevant in the slightest. The fact that Albanians refer to themselves as Shqiptarët when speaking Albanian is not relevant when speaking English, Russian, or Mari. Relevant is what the speaker community itself uses and understands - and I can find no evidence of any sort that тӱрк has been used in Mari outside of the Mari Wikipedia, anywhere, ever. My communications with native speakers of Mari, whose language skills I trust a lot more than PeshSay's, have confirmed the feeling I've had for a long time: the terminology used in the Mari Wikipedia clashes with their language feeling. It feels unnatural and out of place. And what's even worse is getting into trouble with the administrator for *not* using the words he himself made up. Vasli is absolutely correct in saying that that has driven away numerous potential editors from Wikipedia - and frankly, this is not something we can afford.

Some terms you and PeshSay are using - Пырансе for France, компучыр for computer - are not only unnatural, but *not understandable*, which is bound to make people feel confused and uncomfortable. I am not opposed to neologisms or language cultivation. In fact, I support it - if a language wants to survive, it has to be able to adapt to changing circumstances in the world. However, neologisms have to be carefully chosen by people that have good knowledge of the language and its speaker community; language cultivation has to happen in concord with the language community in a broader sense and especially the philologist community - cf. Estonian language cultivation in the 20th century. If even educated Maris look at your words and say "this makes no sense", those words don't have a chance, and you will only drive away potential new editors by pushing them.

So essentially: I do not doubt PeshSay's good intentions - or yours. I mean no disrespect to the work that you have done. But, I am not willing to support him as an administrator unless he is willing to yield to higher authorities as regards Mari orthography and terminology - and I don't mean an arbitrarily formed majority here at Wikipedia consisting of him and a friend of his. JBradley 23:57, 4 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

Just for information, Пырансе word is taken from "Mari calendar 1910". A lot of words are taken form old sources (vocabularies of 1928 and the other), from new sources (new vocabularies of Pr. Ivanov) as well as form the existing Mari literature. If the majority (even educated) of Maris do not know these words, it's not a reason not to use these words. Azimbaj 18:28, 5 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

О страничке запросов к администраторам

Прошу высказаться по вопросу, затронутому здесь. Следует ли организовывать отдельную страничку для запросов к администраторам, или же достаточно обсуждений в Тӱшке или на личных страницах администраторов? --Denis Sacharnych 12:57, 22 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

Салам, JBradley

Зачем ты делаешь такие спорные правки без обсуждения?--ПешСай 15:37, 29 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

Because there is nothing controversial about any of the edits I did in accordance with the guidelines we've established - that the Mari Wikipedia should be conform to the Meadow Mari written language. As a foreigner, I cannot get involved in matters of terminology, but all edits I did today were to make the Mari Wikipedia conform to the new Orthographical dictionary:

Йылмым, литературым да историйым научнын шымлыше В.М. Васильев лӱмеш марий институт: Марий орфографий мутер, Йошкар-Ола, 2011. (И.Г. Иванов (отв. редактор), И.С. Галкин, Ю.В. Андуганов, Е.М. Андрианова, Л.И. Барцева, В.И. Вершинин, В.Г. Гаврилова, Э.В. Гусева, З.К. Иванова, Н.И. Исанбаев, М.Н. Кузнецова, О.А. Сергеев, С.С. Сибатрова)

Controversial would be questions regarding which terms should be used in Mari. These are all matters of correct spelling. JBradley 16:47, 29 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

Джереми, не надо тыкать всем этим словарем. Ты начинаешь войну правок, тебя забанят за это. Есть такие термины, которые можно и так и так писать, я тебе сноски все поставил, поэтому не надо мои правки отменять. Например, можно аҥгличан йылме, а можно и англичан йылме. Кому как нравится, тот так пусть и пишет. Тем более, есть авторитетные источники, как за один вариант, так и за другой. Оба варианта используются в языке. А ты сейчас, пытаешься всем тут навязать как кому и что писать, при этом не будучи носителем языка нисколько. Прекрати этот беспредел. Вместо того, чтобы непрофессионально откачивать мою правку в статье Аҥгличан йылме, лучше сделай грамотную сноску на этот словарь, если уж так хочется им потыкать всем.--ПешСай 17:22, 29 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

Ad hominen, and uselessly so. I'm not a native speaker -- and I never claimed I was. However, И.Г. Иванов, И.С. Галкин, Ю.В. Андуганов, Е.М. Андрианова, Л.И. Барцева, В.И. Вершинин, В.Г. Гаврилова, Э.В. Гусева, З.К. Иванова, Н.И. Исанбаев, М.Н. Кузнецова, О.А. Сергеев and С.С. Сибатрова are, and I have done no edits that don't confirm with their dictionary, and other Mari dictionaries. But, rather than continue an edit war, I think a discussion might be in place regarding what exactly "standard written Meadow Mari" means. JBradley 17:52, 29 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

Я абсолютно согласен с Джереми. Мы уже обсуждали этот вопрос и пришли к выводу, что в марийской Википедии (как и в большинстве др. Википедий), при возникновении спорных моментов, предпочтение отдается официально признанной форме, орфографии. Неологизмы даются как синонимы в скобках или при помощи специальной команды. Википедия – это не личный блог одного человека, это информационный ресурс для всех знающих марийский язык, а большинство из них исходят из официально признанных норм и ищут не веҥгыр, аҥгличан, а венгр и англичан. Vasli 18:02, 29 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

This is a Russification, and the name of their dictionary (Орфогрфий мутер) contains a Russification, Орфографий - this is russion word, Mari word is Чынвозыш. Чем тебе мешает второе название статьи Аҥгличан йылме? Это слово уже используется в марийском языке, и поэтому оно имеет полное право быть представлено на википедии. Не знаю точно в каком именно словаре ты увидел слово англичан? Сделай, пожалуйста, грамотную ссылку на этот словарь, если хочешь, чтобы это название было в марийской википедии. И еще, хочу попросить тебя перестать переименовывать страницы, ты делаешь это как-то коряво, что вся история правок потом "слетает".--ПешСай 18:07, 29 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

"Чем тебе мешает второе название статьи Аҥгличан йылме?" - absolutely nothing, and if it was my decision, I might even support that form. However, it's not my decision.

As for your view that any Russian influence is proof that something isn't Mari is hard to consider serious. I challenge you to say one sentence in Mari that contains no Turkic loan words. It's not unnatural for languages to use loan words to some extent - in fact, it's unnatural for them not to. Even the most "cared for" languages in the world are cock-full of loan words - take Estonian, for example, which on the one hand is a poster child for the usage of neologisms in language revitalization, but a language in which it's very hard to say four words without one of them being German.

This does not mean that I'm opposed to neologisms - quite the contrary, I support them. But the purist approach you're following is entirely detached from reality, and I would like you to show me *one* language in the world in which such an opproach has been successfully followed. JBradley 18:19, 29 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)

Википедийын виктарчыкым пудыртымаш

Салам. Кызыт Lifeway пайдаланыше тыгай 77.40.17.173‎ IP гочын виктарчыкым пудыртен, Интервот лаштыкыште Шӧраш лӱман кышкарым шӧрен, тидым вет ышташ ок лий, каҥашыман. Lifeway пайдаланышым тиде нерген иктаж-кузе увертаре. Предупрежденийым але блокировку тудылан пу.--ПешСай 20:05, 24 Идым 2011 (UTC)

Your temporary access is going to expire soon

Hello, you were granted temporary adminship in this wiki which is going to expire in few days. Just to let you know that if you want to continue as an administrator here, you need to request an extension on stewards' permission request page on Meta-Wiki. Usually adminship extensions do not require a local request. You just have to file a request on Meta by mentioning that you need an extension. Additionally, if you think the community is big enough to elect a permanent administrator, you can place a local request here for a permanent adminship, so stewards can grant you the permanent access. Please ask me or any other steward if you have any question. Thank you! Wikitanvir 05:48, 17 Теле 2011 (UTC)

What's the news

Hello Jeremy!
After a long time I visited here and I did some deeds, ex. a row of of pages about years and centuries. I noticed also that there has been a "war" between views about the development and who are going to be admins. I found some peculiar words, some are neologism, some are taken from ancient Mari dictionaries, some seem to be personal inventions. Also the names of the months are not used in the Mari media (newspapers etc). And the categories are not so fine organised. In my opinion this pell mell is the main obstacle to participate in the development of this Wiki.
Because the discussion has been going in many places, can you shortly tell me what is the situation for the moment. --Arto (обсуждение) 12:45, 8 Шорыкйол 2013 (UTC)

Hi! I'm afraid I don't have anything overly optimistic to say. The "war" you mentioned got so nasty (actually, the atmosphere around here had already been nasty long before the situation exploded) that pretty much all editors of note left .. and the project has not recovered from this at all yet. I don't feel like there is much that we as outsiders can do to fight the critical problem the Mari Wikipedia currently is facing: former editors got turned off by the constant arguing and no longer come here as it's just no fun to contribute in such a nasty environment; new editors haven't appeared yet. See here: http://mariuveren.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/practically-no-maris-left-on-mari-wikipedia/ ... the article is already 1 1/2 years old. The admin in question ended up being disposed, but even after that, arguments continued, and I don't think the situation has improved at all since.

There was actually a plan last year to make students at MarGU in Yoshkar-Ola write their Mari-language essays on various topics in a format that they could then, later, be integrated into the Mari Wikipedia. I thought this was a great idea. Unfortunately, nothing much came of this. I think it would take a new initiative of this sort to introduce new life into this place, but I don't currently have the means to spearhead it myself.

Should there ever be an editorship to make this project worthwhile again: yes, terminology etc. is all rather pell-mell, unsystematic and unnatural (this was actually a core issue in the "war" - the key page to read here is "Community portal", and the Archive page there, though a word of warning: it's all rather complicated, nasty and childish). My attempts to bring the Wikipedia in line with the new orthographic dictionary, and promoting a measured use of neologisms (i.e., only use them where they are clearly and unambiguously understandable for native speakers, and citable to a reliable source) myself haven't been very successful - see the discussion item "Салам, JBradley" on this very page, and the arguments in the community portal. It would really need a critical mass of competent Mari native speakers supporting such a policy for it to be effective and plausible, rather than more arguments between non-native speakers. JBradley (обсуждение) 23:45, 11 Шорыкйол 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I did read the messages here and there and most of them have quite nasty contents but I couln’t figure out what was the main result of the debate. So there are no native admins or sysops? Somewhere was written that there are external watchers (or how they are called).

When the project was in the incubator I did pages for the months and days but now the names of the months are taken from folklore (or sth). Maybe the Finnish names of the months were the source of the inspiration. They do not please me (the Finnish months cause also funny coincidences: Argentiinassa on kesäkuussa lunta).

We outsiders can’t do nothing but wait new faces, more adult ones, to appear and to take this important project under their command. It’s a pity and we must live with it. --Arto (обсуждение) 16:17, 13 Шорыкйол 2013 (UTC)

I need help

Джереми, мы хотим открыть Викитеку (Wikisource project) на марийском языке. Ты можешь помочь в ее инкубационном периоде? Нужно начать, я не знаю как. --Санюн Вадик (обсуждение) 05:00, 3 Ага 2013 (UTC)